Around the Block With Jefferson Nunn – Interview With Gaurav Dubey of TDeFi.

Jefferson Nunn  0:51 

Welcome to another edition of Around the Block. And I’m here today with a very special guest Gaurav Dubey, I said your name right? How you doing today?

Gaurav Dubey  1:04 

I’m fantastic. Amazing with the markets, recovering and FED rates. You know, not indicating an upcoming recession. We are in the best times.

Jefferson Nunn  1:17 

Yeah, I kind of always laugh when my friends and family they come to me and they go oh, you are you okay? I mean, I heard Bitcoin crashed. And it’s like, if it’s a crash, I keep hoping it’s gonna crash more because time it does crash is higher.

Gaurav Dubey  1:35 

Absolutely, but my take usually is slightly different. I start quoting the stocks and the rest of the markets and then try to establish the fact that is that is the reason good news about Bitcoin, specifically, that it was able to retain itself amongst the top five or top 10 stocks. What it essentially means is that 90% of the stock market performed worse than Bitcoin. Right. And that is, so yeah, the relevance was established. And by the end of everything, you know, we heard the Black Rock News, which, you know, reestablished Bitcoin amongst, you know, investable assets.

Jefferson Nunn  2:24 

Yeah, I really keep telling everybody Bitcoin and Ethereum those are my two, ignore everything else, you do those two, you’ll be alright. And I really view them as different segments, you know, Bitcoin is, you know, primarily store of value. Whereas, Ethereum and to me is programmable money, you can actually do things with it, what are your thoughts along those lines?

Gaurav Dubey  2:52 

I have two aspects on this, I would say right, one is the utility technical aspect. And the other one is a more philosophical economical aspect, right. Bitcoin truly has settled around the base of economix, which is adoption, circulation store, you know, these Principles of Economics where individuals and, you know, humans have essentially started adopting it as a store of value. And the rate of adoption actually, or call it the rate of belief, beats everything else, no matter what technology comes in later. The adoption has sort of taken over everything. So that’s where Bitcoin you know, leads the race and is the true-blue chip or call it the true top cap of the market. Now Ethereum is the technically best application, again, based on adoption, of course. But since you know, the utility has found a place in the decentralization I mean, in the decentralized world. Ethereum obviously stands tall as the second best not because of primarily not because of just adoption, but because of the utility it created around the fact of programmable money. Right? So, my thought process is that both are number one in their own sweet ways. But then, but then store of value and adoption primarily makes Bitcoin the ultimate top.

Jefferson Nunn  4:42 

Yeah, makes sense. And so, keep that in. Tell me a little bit about what you’re doing now at TDeFi. It looks like he had quite a number of projects underway.

Gaurav Dubey  4:53 

Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean. So TDeFi is a “Crypto Incubator and the Advisory,” and the story itself is pretty exciting, but I’ll cover it in a minute. It started as an accelerator when we started the first cohort. The first, the companies from the first cohort were already demanding handholding towards the launch, you know which Fell which fell under the incubation category. And you know, they needed support on an individual basis and not just generalized as a cohort of an accelerator. That’s when we pivoted from being an accelerator to an incubator, also, because the pipeline was flooded with, with projects, you know, higher quality projects that were later in the stage of development, and were not qualified. I mean, they were overqualified to be in an accelerator. And then, by the time we were, you know, by the time we operated the incubator for a year, to come, companies wanted further more hand holding in the, in the enterprise connection, field, in the markets management, and so many day-to-day topics. And myself and my team, having an experience of 14 years of running a technology incubator in India, we were best equipped to be launching an advisory service for the incubated projects that had launched and have achieved, you know, a billion-dollar valuation in the market cap. So, this is this is how we, we, you know, this is how TDeFi today became what it is, right. And we have incubated more than 60 projects, we have devoted a few. So, the final number rests around 50. And these are projects that are creating real world value through the utility of public blockchains. We’re not a big fan of private blockchains unless, you know, we really bumped into a use case. That’s, that’s practical, and, and has better utility in private networks than public. So yeah, TDeFi primarily is, is focused on, on projects that are using public blockchains and crypto to change lives, right and find real world use case, myself, you know, from a background of, you know, 15 plus years in Angel investment and private equity. And I’m still not the Legion crypto guy, right. So, I’m not influenced or we didn’t take the route of fancy NFT incubations. And you know, just about everything that knocks on the door, and is and is hot. For a while we’re not we don’t choose our incubations based on those qualities and criterias rather, on real world utilities, no matter how long the road map is.

Jefferson Nunn  7:54 

Make sense. Makes sense. And I think there’s a lot of room for growth within this space. You know, Metaverse, I just got done talking with the head of one of the directors of product at HTC. You know, which is the Vive and the flow and so forth. Right. And if I heard and also, even before that Adam Draper, you know, it seems like Metaverse is getting a lot of investment. So, can you tell me a little bit? Yeah, what do you see coming now and maybe even what’s next?

Gaurav Dubey  8:38 

I see Metaverse as a confluence of the past two megatrends. And please try and visualize the past and the future. As I narrate the story, right? We lived through the.com emergence, when website was a big thing, the website was a was a way to interact with the consumers with their audience. And but no one really had a website of their own or even preferred to get into the trouble of getting a website. So, what they did was they bought spaces boxes, blocks on Rediff, on Yahoo, and all these public websites, you know, that had crawled and used to refer themselves to those pages or those boxes, you know, boxes later on became individual pages and pages further, you know, translated into sub domains and what not. So that was how interaction to audience started, right. And then we came into a hyper content world with, with you know, video, and engagement and VR. We saw the emergence of YouTube, Netflix, and so on. So that’s when video content and hyper engagement found its way to our life and sales and again, engagement went on to platforms like Instagram, YouTube, so on and so forth for, for, for better reasons, right? Better interaction. I see Metaverse as the future of both of these, you know, I am sorry, I already use the word hyper engagement. But now this hyper engagement jumps on to a whole new level with Metaverse is the same time in the lifecycle as it was with people taking a box on Rediff. Right now, people are buying land on Metaverse to present themselves, a lot of them are launching multiverses and a lot of people that are not in a state to launch their own networks or buying land, but eventually what I’m looking at is a future of cross interacting hyper interactive metaverses, which is which will be the ultimate portal of engagement with audience of respective audience of people, right. So, I’m looking at a future where websites are all VR AR modelled called and Metaverse, obviously. And the standards of Metaverse are important, because if these were just VR websites, you won’t be able to move things around, you won’t be able to move value around. And we all know that web3.0 is about the web of value. Right? So, if it won’t be Metaverse, then then the then the trick is the value won’t be moved across the meta versus right. So, to conclude, I would say, yes, Metaverse definitely deserves the attention it’s getting. Because you have to imagine and visualize a future when everything that you do on internet moves to a hyper interactive state, or hyper engagement state where the user and audience gets a better view feel of the party that they’re engaging with, or the object that they’re engaging with. And obviously, with the power of blockchain and you know, web3.0, the value is better verified than it is in web2.0. And those utilities. I’m sorry, I made a very long statement.

Jefferson Nunn  12:32 

Fascinating, I thoroughly enjoyed it really. May I ask what do you think, I mean, you’ve covered a lot of opportunities. But if you’re a young, enterprising developer, what would you say to them, you know, to look at or consider.

Gaurav Dubey  12:51 

Actually, on this note, I’m sorry, but I’ll have to add one more thing. So, if you’re a developer, I have a beautiful What do you call a meme or just an infographic that I found floating on, on one of those, you know, channels. And the core of the crux of that infographic, was that vektory developers are a fraction of percentage of the of the total developers in the world, right. So, if you’re a developer, you love learning new things. You definitely should look at web3.0 technologies. There are so many education platforms. But guess what Metaverse and answer has an answer for that as well. There are Metaverses that are pitching in DD fi incubator. And hence I know that there are so many Metaverses is coming around education. And that quality of education is very different from your classroom. Because now you learn in a in a VR AR environment, which is again, like I said in my past notion is hyper engaging. And that hyper engagement leads to better learning. So why not step into web3.0, and use the ways of web3.0 to learn coding in web3.0? Right, so that’s point one, but I also think a mega opportunity has, you know, found its inception. And, and, and, and the people who are into Design Animation, you know, graphics have a big future with the metaverse emerging, right 3D graphics is going to blow up the demand for 3D graphic designers and especially, you know, VR AR designers will skyrocket now. So, for people who are very early in identifying a career I have a knack for design, I have a knack for art, obviously, digital design. By the way, when I say obviously, I don’t mean 100% In digital design, because digital designs are made on the, you know, high quality digital designs are made on the top of inspirations from the real world designing or, you know, modern art and whatnot sculptures. So, I’m not saying that there’s no space for anyone other than digital design, but I’m saying people in the field or in the work or that are practicing or planning to practice digital designing 3D modeling, have a have a huge future ahead. So yeah, these two people are on the top of, you know, the food chain, the upcoming food chain of careers.

Jefferson Nunn  15:53 

Yeah, that’s amazing man. And I thoroughly agree, and I even think, at least with the core blockchain technologies, I think there’s probably going to be something along the lines of like blockchain architect where you can architect an overall solution across all the different mediums that actually solve the problem, like you mentioned, education, you know, making that hyper engagement, you know, because people learn, not so much through visually, they learn to the engagement of all the senses, right? They learn better that way.

Gaurav Dubey  16:08 

Absolutely, absolutely.

Jefferson Nunn  16:16 

They’re looking at senses you can engage, the better you can learn. So yes, I think that’s definitely the future. So, having said all that, I mean, how did you get your starting entry into all of this? If I mean most, if you talk to the traditional finance guy, they’re saying, the traditional economy is where it’s all that and here you are at the very first cracks, or how did that happen?

Gaurav Dubey  16:55 

Again, I’m sure everyone has their own fascinating story of how they got into crypto. But based on as many stories, as I have heard, mine is pretty unique. I got acquainted to blockchain and crypto not through buying Bitcoin, which is the case with 99% people. I was, you know, I told you, I’ve been operating a technology incubator. And in that incubator, we had a company that was that had microtransactions of, of the capacity of $200,000, a day in checks of $1 to $5. Right. And while was trying to solve that, through traditional payment method, we were struggling with payment systems and cards and processors, each one shutting the doors on us almost every week, right. And banks, questioning our transaction. And that’s when someone told me about an upcoming product technology solution called Stellar. And we ended up using the, you know, the stellar setup, without even knowing that, that this thing would lead into a coin. That would be, you know, that will be sobering. It felt sobering. I mean, it won’t, it won’t be transferable directly into Fiat. So then, after operating, selling, obviously, you know, I was running, I am running a big company, and it was big enough at that time. So, I was not, you know, micromanaging all the development. So, after a while, my team told me that, sir, we have something called stellar accumulating in our system, where do we exchange it? Where are the profits? And I engage and I, you know, I had a word with the stellar team and they told me that I can exchange it for something called Bitcoin. Right? So that was my, yeah, that was my acquaintance then you know, the story goes on. I have I’ve made and sold telecom companies. I’m a telecom engineer primarily which makes me more of a hardware guy. So, the day I got acquainted to Bitcoin within three months you know, reading the Bitcoin white paper, learning about the hardware rigidly found my love, you know, my love found its way in Bitcoin mining and I while reading and understanding mining, I immediately, you know, in my mind, found how can I optimize Bitcoin mining and be more profitable than average miners? So, we I immediately started mining operations back then. And then, you know, things kept advancing the mined bitcoins were sold in the Gulf region for a 12 to 15% premium and that made us establish at desk manage the margins on each side because we were buying bitcoins from casinos around the world and games, companies, you know, we started trading it, and that led us plus traders. And, and then yeah, investments, were already a part of the business. So, the day the first ICO arrived, I was already investing in the ICOs including the first one called the Dow. And before the Dow, we had already accumulated Ethereum, and so and so on. So, the journey continues. But while investing, you know, for these three, four years, I realized that projects in crypto are failing for silly reasons, then, [Inaudible] nothing at all. That could be called a professional advisory that could, you know, advise, and there’s nobody there to guide these technology-oriented entrepreneurs about business, right, and everyone was creating a tech solution. But no one was bothered to take them to the real world. And that that was floating in my mind when one of my portfolio companies started this accelerator called TDeFi. And, and later on in six months, they wanted to close it. Because they said, well, we are good at investments. But we don’t want to we don’t want to deal with the mess of dealing with startups and entrepreneurs. And I said, well, this is what I’ve been thinking for a lot of, you know, for a long time. And I enjoy this. So let me take the front seat there. And this is how you know the journey. Today as it stands, I am the CEO of port of a sister concern of my portfolio company, but I enjoy it. It’s more or less my passion.

Jefferson Nunn  21:44 

Yeah, really, really interesting. And that’s the thing. I mean, there’s, crypto is such a arcane space, at least it used to be. And now that it’s more mainstream, I think people are finally wrapping their heads around the idea of programming or money. So crypto 10 years from now, what do you think will be next? What do you think we’ll see?

Gaurav Dubey  22:11 

Good question. So, for the last couple of hours, I was on a Twitter space, the biggest today space in crypto on and this was the topic market analysis, Bitcoin, maximalism and Bitcoin in 10 years. So, so I actually have a rehearsed and well-established answer, I think. So, we already have seen two things, one, countries accepting bitcoin as a legal tender, and even as a currency, you know, in case of El Salvador, and so on, as a currency to the country. So, we have a big shift as we talk happening in the world. That is the shift of the petro dollar economy. That Russian war I mean, the Russian invasion on Ukraine, and it’s and the limitation of energy flow into Europe, bringing euro and dollar closer to each other. And then the other oil and energy suppliers of the world like, like the Gulf countries, unpegging themselves from the dollar, you know, that makes the petro dollar economy and, and pegging themselves to new currencies like the Chinese currency, right and opening themselves wider than the dollar will definitely, you know, this is a double sided pressure, or let’s say, it’s a double sided easing on the countries that were, you know, living the boundaries of the US dollar, to move towards something as decentralized and as adoptable, as gold. And the second-best replacement is Bitcoin, right? The gold story has already started with Russia pegging the ruble in gold and the country supporting Russia in this war to the same as well right. So, we are we are looking at two things, the unpacking of dollar to oil and energy one and two pegging of currencies to something to an asset again, you know, which is gold. This actually opens up the horizon for smaller countries, smaller economies, to peg themselves to something you know, newer and obviously better for themselves. So, I see Bitcoin, again, using the same word hyper adopted as currency as legal tender, as not just store of value but means of moving of value, and even currency, right? There’s this big argument Around the world about, you know, Fiats and the currencies being the biggest scam, right? The banking systems being the biggest scam or whatever they want to call it, you know, the different theories. I’m not getting into that, and neither is that my narrative, but I’m saying Bitcoin definitely is so much better than everything centralize right countries, people, audience, regulators, governments can trust it blindfolded. You know, they can simply read the white paper and trust it. So yes, I see a future of Bitcoin. And then whosoever gets into bitcoin definitely slides into the alternative currencies and the utilities and the world of public blockchains and crypto. So, I’m looking at a world dealing with decentralized applications, decentralized utilities, and decentralize money.

Jefferson Nunn  25:57 

Awesome. Well, this has been a thoroughly enjoyable show. And if people want to, two things, first, do you have any final thoughts for our listeners? And second, if they want to get in touch with you, how could they do so?

Gaurav Dubey  26:14 

Well, I have a statement that has recently, you know, in the last two years gotten popular among startups and entrepreneurs, “Ideas lose, People don’t.” We live by this philosophy that the core philosophy of TDeFi. So, if you are being a crypto entrepreneur, you have an idea, or start a startup idea in mind, or a solution in mind that can change lives of people using Blockchain and I’m in public blockchain and crypto. We are here waiting for you to help you, you know, begin your journey as a startup and lead it to being a large enterprise. That’s one, the easiest and the best way to reach us out is the TDeFi website TDe.Fi, the domain is simple and is embedded in the name and the application buttons there that’s, that’s the most that’s the most efficient way of reaching out to us.

Jefferson Nunn  27:15 

Awesome guy. Thank you so much for being on the show. I learned a lot and it was awesome. Thank you.

Gaurav Dubey  27:22 

Thank you, Jefferson, for having me. And you definitely, you know, feel the vibe of the space and your questions where you know, right on spot. Good for the audience. Good for the for the speakers and good for you for sure. Thank you.

Jefferson Nunn  27:37 

Thank you.